I have tested latest RC iso in Virtualbox VM. I use Turkish "Traditional" F keyboard and installer does not offer a keyboard layout selection until summary screen. Keyboard layout identifies itself as Turkish Q. It is impossible to set root and user password with default layout in root password/user creation screen. This leads users to set their root password wrong. From my experience, user should know where correct keys are relative to a Q keyboard. Somewhere before root password screen, a keyboard selection screen should be offered to fix this behaviour. Reproducible: Steps to Reproduce:
I think this is a serious problem for end user and a relaese_blocker.
Priority: Normal => release_blocker
Humm Turkish has more than one keyboard layout. Please attach the /root/drakx/report.bug.xz from the machine where you saw that.
CC: (none) => thierry.vignaudSummary: Classic installer does not offer keyboard layout until summary screen => Classic installer does not offer keyboard layout for some languages until summary screenKeywords: (none) => NEEDINFO
No need, I've just checked. This is because there's only 2 layouts and we only offer to select the layout if there's more than 2
Keywords: NEEDINFO => (none)
(In reply to Thierry Vignaud from comment #3) So, we should offer to select the layout if there is more than 1, then? We can not push users to learn a layout which they don't use, right?
Thierry any idea to go on on that one ?
CC: (none) => ennael1
Nothing for now. Unless I'm mistaken, this has been like this for 10+ years. So it cannot be release critical and I don't want to risk something by fixing it no. Let's look at it for mga5
Priority: release_blocker => NormalSeverity: major => normal
@ Atilla When you choose an additional language over the "Multiple languages" button in the Language choice screen, the keyboard(s) for that language will be added, so then you will get the keyboard choice screen in time. Can Turkish only be typed with the two Turkish keyboards? If more keyboards are used to type Turkish, (for instance by Turkish people who live in other countries) it would make sense to add the most commonly used non-Turkish one(s) to the selection. That might be less risky than making the screen appear for two keyboard lay-outs
CC: (none) => marja11
Indeed. I hadn't though at any of those.
(In reply to Thierry Vignaud from comment #8) Thank you Marja for the suggestion. I hadn't tought for this. en_US international keyboard layout should work like Turkish Qwerty. So that can be added. Btw, Thierry would you mind to change text "Turkish traditional F keyboard". A Qwerty keyboard is traditional but F keyboard layout is more modern layout...
That would be for mga5 too as it would break translations just before the final release else...
Created attachment 4893 [details] Czech selectKeyboard screen before partioning and install steps Was this just fixed? Czech doesn't have the problem with a pre-final iso If not, then maybe the method that was used for Czech can be copied? It allows to choose between only two keyboard lay-outs before the partitioning step.
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #11) Sorry for late reply. Marja, still Turkish has this problem with final isos. I did not see that window. So, i think and hope Thierry will fix this until first alpha.
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #12) > (In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #11) > Sorry for late reply. Marja, still Turkish has this problem with final isos. > I did not see that window. So, i think and hope Thierry will fix this until > first alpha. I can't figure out why the selectKeyboard screen does show up for Czech, unless it has to do with the value(?) of at least 50 that both Czech keyboards have in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/lib/keyboard.pm while one of the Turkish keyboards only has 30: 'cs' => 'cz_qwerty:70 cz:50', 'tr' => 'tr_q:90 tr_f:30' Anyway, assigning to Thierry, who seemed willing to fix both bugs (also the one in comment 9) In http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Turkish/Computing_in_Turkish I read about the "F"-keyboard: > This keyboard layout was designed in 1955 by Ä°hsan Yener. During its design, > the Turkish Language Academy (TDK) investigated letter frequencies in Turkish > and used this statistical basis to design the Turkish-F keyboard. It provides > a balanced distribution of typing effort between the hands - 49% for the left > hand and 51% for the right. @ Atilla The "F"-keyboard seems a much better keyboard to type Turkish, is it the one that is used most, nowadays?
Assignee: bugsquad => thierry.vignaudSource RPM: (none) => drakx-kbd-mouse-x11
Marja, while F Keyboard is the best keyboard layout for Turkish; and it is better than QWERTY for English (my experience), unfortunately it is used much lesser. Computer parts and accessors are imported and they are QWERTY. F keyboard is used in state offices and schools only. And some dinosaurs like me use it. :(
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #14) > Marja, while F Keyboard is the best keyboard layout for Turkish; and it is > better than QWERTY for English (my experience), unfortunately it is used > much lesser. Computer parts and accessors are imported and they are QWERTY. > F keyboard is used in state offices and schools only. And some dinosaurs > like me use it. :( (As good as) all state offices and schools? Just asking because I'm wondering whether "Turkish state & schools F keyboard" would be the best description @ Thierry Does it irritate you if a n00b like me thinks aloud about the code, like I did in commment 13? If not, then I might think aloud a bit more.
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #15) > (As good as) all state offices and schools? Just asking because I'm > wondering whether "Turkish state & schools F keyboard" would be the best > description > "Turkish state & schools F keyboard" isn't a good description. Only "Turkish F keyboard" is enough. From the tech historical point, obviously "Traditional F keyboard" description is simply wrong. For all keyboard layouts, as i know, QWERTY is the historic and "traditional" one, from the beginning of invention of first mechanical typewriters. :) So, for Turkish, F keyboard is the modern one. I think there will be a governmental regulation, according to tech news, about limiting importing QWERTY keyboards and laptops, pads using it. After all, F keyboard is the most Turkish compatible keyboard layout out there.
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #13) > I can't figure out why the selectKeyboard screen does show up for Czech, > unless it has to do with the value(?) of at least 50 that both Czech > keyboards have in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/lib/keyboard.pm while one of the > Turkish keyboards only has 30: > > 'cs' => 'cz_qwerty:70 cz:50', > > 'tr' => 'tr_q:90 tr_f:30' > *If* those lines have anything to do with it, then I now think it is the value of 90 for the Turkish Q keyboard that makes installer skip the selectKeyboard step. There is a ">= 90" in the "sub selectKeyboard"-part of drakx/perl-install/install/steps_interactive.pm (There is also a third (Sun) Czech keyboard in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/lib/keyboard.pm, but I have the feeling that one would show up in the selectKeyboard step if it mattered)
Mageia 5 Alpha 1 have same issue. Thierry, any progress on this?
Whiteboard: (none) => 5alpha1
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #18) > Mageia 5 Alpha 1 have same issue. Thierry, any progress on this? Ping? Thierry, if you don't mind?
Created attachment 5524 [details] remove "tradional" and "modern" from Turkish keyboard descriptions (In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #9) > > Btw, Thierry would you mind to change text "Turkish traditional F keyboard". > A Qwerty keyboard is traditional but F keyboard layout is more modern > layout... (In reply to Thierry Vignaud from comment #10) > That would be for mga5 too as it would break translations just before the > final release else... Well, the attached patch should be in time, then
Created attachment 5525 [details] 80 for tr_q keyboard (and 40 for tr_f) patch (In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #17) > (In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #13) > > > I can't figure out why the selectKeyboard screen does show up for Czech, > > unless it has to do with <snip> > > 'cs' => 'cz_qwerty:70 cz:50', > > > > 'tr' => 'tr_q:90 tr_f:30' > > > > *If* those lines have anything to do with it, then I now think it is the > value of 90 for the Turkish Q keyboard that makes installer skip the > selectKeyboard step. > There is a ">= 90" in the "sub selectKeyboard"-part of > drakx/perl-install/install/steps_interactive.pm > tr_q is 80 in the attached patch (and tr_f 40, but I don't think that matters). @ Thierry If it doesn't get fixed for all languages with this issue, yet, can this patch then be tried?
Thanks Marja. Thierry, what do you think about this patch? Can we apply this? I' m sure this will only breaks Turkish translations that i can fix asap.
CC: (none) => remiWhiteboard: 5alpha1 => 5beta1
https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16873 > Comment 4 Funda Wang 2005-08-10 22:26:48 CEST > Seems fixed. But would it better not displaying keyboard selection step if > there is only one best fit? > Comment 5 Pascal "Pixel" Rigaux private 2005-08-11 10:10:00 CEST > it doesn't display iff the first keyboard in %keyboard::lang2keyboard > has >= 90 For getting the first keyboard choice screen when doing a Turkish only install, I think we can now be sure enough that only 'tr' => 'tr_q:90 tr_f:30', needs to be changed to 'tr' => 'tr_q:80 tr_f:30', in soft/drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/lib/keyboard.pm @ Thierry Are you now OK with this change? @ Funda Btw, I'm not sure I understand what happens with the keyboards that do not have a numerical value at all. Wasn't that value being missing the reason you could not choose the en_US one he needed, but any other one? In your commit message for Mdv#16783 you said you reverted the removal of the keyboard weight, but that was after pixel had already done another commit for that bug (is there a place on earth where the Mdv soft diffs from that time can still be seen?)... so if the removal was done in pixel's commit, then a missing numerical value is maybe magically valid, after all?
CC: (none) => fundawang
"start6" means nothing if this gets fixed before the milestone is reached. Else it means: @ anyone and @ me: feel free to apply the patches right after Mga 6 cauldron is opened They most probably won't break anything, except for translations. However, we cannot be more than 99,9% sure: who knows what all happened since 2005! Anyway, blame me if things do break!
Whiteboard: 5beta1 => 5beta1 start6Target Milestone: --- => Mageia 5
Created attachment 5674 [details] current list of keyboards with weight 90 Attaching the list of languages with a keyboard with numerical value or weight 90 (or more), so the list of languages for which the selectKeyboard screen is not shown at the beginning of install We should maybe ask the translators for those languages (if we have translators for them) whether it is (still) good to skip that screen for their language.
I finally have time to try BETA 1 classical dvd on virtualbox and this issue still remains. Marja, is this still not fixed on Beta2 isos?
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #26) > I finally have time to try BETA 1 classical dvd on virtualbox and this issue > still remains. Marja, is this still not fixed on Beta2 isos? @Marja, It seems that your patch doesn't included in either in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 package or source code. @Thierry, Would you mind to apply the patch, it only changes Turkish layout; so we can test it if it works. I don't know the whole iso generating process to rebuild a classicl iso. Or do you permit me to add the patch to drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 package now?
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #27) > (In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #26) > > I finally have time to try BETA 1 classical dvd on virtualbox and this issue > > still remains. Marja, is this still not fixed on Beta2 isos? > > @Marja, > It seems that your patch doesn't included in either in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 > package or source code. > > @Thierry, > Would you mind to apply the patch, it only changes Turkish layout; so we can > test it if it works. I don't know the whole iso generating process to > rebuild a classicl iso. Or do you permit me to add the patch to > drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 package now? Thierry might be too busy with nasty bugs that affect many more users. I don't dare to push those changes to git now, I'm just a padawan who doesn't know Perl. However, if no one does it before and if no one explains what is wrong with them, then I do intend to push my patches to git as soon as Mga6 cauldron is opened, so about 1 week after Mageia 5 release. CC'ing some more perl mongers, there are more of them in Mageia :-) @ anaselli @ pterjan @ blino @ grenoya pixel said here: https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16873 that the first keyboard choice screen doesn't display if the first keyboard in %keyboard::lang2keyboard has >= 90 If it still works that way, then changing: 'tr' => 'tr_q:90 tr_f:30', into: 'tr' => 'tr_q:80 tr_f:30', should let the keyboard choice screen appear at the beginning of install for Turkish. There is a ">= 90" in the "sub selectKeyboard"-part of git/software/drakx/perl-install/install/steps_interactive.pm I don't understand anything else of that line, yet, though :-( Do you see any reason why my patches could break things? If not, do you think they (so including the improvement of the Turkish keyboard descriptions) can be pushed now (and if so, are you willing to do that)? We still need to investigate for which other languages such a fix is needed..... Funda probably still prefers to _not_ see the first keyboard choice screen for zh_CN, so we should not try to "fix" it for zh_CN ;-)
CC: (none) => anaselli, grenoya, mageia, pterjan
Well i read quickly the code and it seems that in selectKeyboard the value tested is 90 so it seems correct what marja says. I wonder if a patch like that, could really give regressions... in any cases it's very easy to revert :p
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #16) > I think there will be a governmental regulation, according to tech news, > about limiting importing QWERTY keyboards and laptops, pads using it. After > all, F keyboard is the most Turkish compatible keyboard layout out there. Is there any news on that? If that happened, or if it is very likely to happen, then there is a new situation which would make this bug a release blocker (for Turkish only, then). Btw, the workaround of selecting a second language at the beginning of install, that does make the selectKeyboard screen appear for you, correct?
IMO we should get this fixed now and before 5beta2, there's no point in waiting again for another release cycle and forget about it until 6beta1 where it will be "too late" again. If we're breaking the translation of two strings that noone will care about apart from Turkish users, and I know that Attila will make sure the turkish translation gets fixed, then so be it. But IMO we should first look whether the "weight >= 90" logic is correct. Basically all languages for which a keyboard layout has more than 90 as a weight will not have a keyboard selection screen? I see that Ukrainian has 90 for the default keyboard, and then some Russian variants with lower weights. Yuri, can you confirm that you have no keyboard layout selection screen at install and that it's fine for Ukrainian users?
CC: (none) => yurchor
s/more than/90 or more than/ This is true if _no_ additional languages are chosen. Yuri will most probably install several by default
CC: (none) => eeeemail
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #32) > s/more than/90 or more than/ > > This is true if _no_ additional languages are chosen. > Yuri will most probably install several by default Not quite right. American English + Ukrainian. I cannot choose Ukrainian from the beginning (bootloader hangs BR #12677) and never have this problem. It may exist but I cannot confirm it.
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #30) > (In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #16) > > > I think there will be a governmental regulation, according to tech news, > > about limiting importing QWERTY keyboards and laptops, pads using it. After > > all, F keyboard is the most Turkish compatible keyboard layout out there. > > Is there any news on that? If that happened, or if it is very likely to > happen, then there is a new situation which would make this bug a release > blocker (for Turkish only, then). > > Btw, the workaround of selecting a second language at the beginning of > install, that does make the selectKeyboard screen appear for you, correct? @Marja, Well, goverment still did not make any regulation. So, no need to add release-blocker tag to this report. Your suggested workaround works but who wants to install a language that he/she can not understand? @Remi, Sure i can easily fix Turkish translation :) @Yuri and @Remi, Without pushing patched packages i think we can not find out if the logic is correct. Problem appears at installer as the whole bug is about. My concern is i don't know Perl and do not want to mess *drakx* up. I' ll post to dev-mailing list about this bug. I think i can get Thierry's attention there.
Well also italian has 3 keyboards (even if i don't know why really :)) I recall once the screen offering them during installation, but i haven't seen it now... and i read it has 90 as first weight. If all are scared I can commit that change, but we need someone who also submit the new package.
You can also submit the package, drakx* packages are not frozen.
Created attachment 5759 [details] improved Turkish keyboard descriptions, without "modern" and "traditional" The discussion on IRC and here have convinced me that we shouldn't wait till after Mga 5 release. I applied the changes (except the "40" for "tr_f") to my local git copy, made a new tarball, then locally rebuilt drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 and updated to drakx-kbd-mouse-x11-text-1.3-1.mga5 libdrakx-kbd-mouse-x11-1.3-1.mga5 drakx-kbd-mouse-x11-1.3-1.mga5 my system didn't crash, nothing exploded, and the words "modern" and "traditional" are removed from the Turkish keyboard descriptions (see attached screenshot) I'll submit the changes to git and commit to svn. @ Angelo Please review my changes after I submit/commit them and submit to SVN if it looks good. If anyone complains that it breaks something, then tell them I'm to blame
commit 5843595959268fd1b6fe9934f7427908161fbe0e Author: Marja van Waes <marja@...> Date: Wed Dec 24 18:34:45 2014 +0100 decrease weight of tr_q keyboard (mga#12348) --- Commit Link: http://gitweb.mageia.org/software/drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/commit/?id=5843595959268fd1b6fe9934f7427908161fbe0e
commit 2be778cd7fbd85e40fe85cd61d1f0c411e1194b7 Author: Marja van Waes <marja@...> Date: Wed Dec 24 18:34:45 2014 +0100 decrease weight of tr_q keyboard (mga#12348) --- Commit Link: http://gitweb.mageia.org/software/drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/commit/?id=2be778cd7fbd85e40fe85cd61d1f0c411e1194b7
I forgot to say, but am sure most reading this will already know, that drakx-installer-stage2 needs to be rebuild after new drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 is pushed.
drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 has been submitted, i have no time to submit drakx-installer-stage2 now, will do it later. anyway some tests could be performed already though
Created attachment 5761 [details] selectKeyboard screen at beginning of install for Turkish Angelo rebuilt drakx-installer-stage2, and now, using boot.iso, the selectKeyboard screen appears right after the "install or upgrade" step, at the beginning of install :-) The keyboard names appear in English, because the translation wasn't updated yet.
Just for the record, if _no_ user complains about this bug for another language, then I prefer to wait until after Mageia 5 release with fixing this for any other language. The reason is, that when grepping for "lang2keyboard", I found a lot of code that I did not understand. I do not know whether the keyboard weight is used for more things, and if so, whether changing the weight may have broken something else. So I prefer a longer than normal time to find possible regressions.
Created attachment 5794 [details] the only UK keyboardscreen (for how to toggle between US and UK layout?) (In reply to Yuri Chornoivan from comment #33) > (In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #32) > > s/more than/90 or more than/ > > > > This is true if _no_ additional languages are chosen. > > Yuri will most probably install several by default > > Not quite right. American English + Ukrainian. > > I cannot choose Ukrainian from the beginning (bootloader hangs BR #12677) > and never have this problem. It may exist but I cannot confirm it. I just started a traditional install with only Ukrainian as language (by selecting Ukrainian in stage2, in the first selectLanguage screen). The selectKeyboard screen was skipped, but instead I got the attached screen. I suppose it is about which keys you want to use to toggle between UK and latin characters? According to keyboard.pm 'uk' => 'ua:90 ru:50 ru_yawerty:40', there is a chance that some Ukrainian users have a Russian keyboard. However, if all of them will always install Russian as second language, then they will always get the selectKeyboard screen, so not be affected by this bug.
Attachment 5524 is obsolete: 0 => 1 Attachment 5525 is obsolete: 0 => 1
(In reply to Marja van Waes from comment #44) > Created attachment 5794 [details] > the only UK keyboardscreen (for how to toggle between US and UK layout?) Yes, that's correct. > The selectKeyboard screen was skipped, but instead I got the attached > screen. I suppose it is about which keys you want to use to toggle between > UK and latin characters? Yes.
Sorry for the late reply. Only now i had the time to install Beta2 to VM. I can confirm that installer now proposes both Turkish F and Q keyboard layouts. Thank you very much!
(In reply to Atilla ÃNTAÅ from comment #46) > Sorry for the late reply. Only now i had the time to install Beta2 to VM. I > can confirm that installer now proposes both Turkish F and Q keyboard > layouts. Thank you very much! Yw & np Please do inform us if you see any regressions, or anything that might be a regression. (The Gnome keyboard problem of bug 14476 for which the fix now causes problems in KDE with the last QA 5beta3 iso, is unrelated)
CC: grenoya => (none)
Testing at last the M5 RC Classic x64 DVD on real hardware with French AZERTY keyboard. I chose Cymraeg from the initial language selection screen, but do not know whether this is important i.e. whether the fault would have happened with say English. Simpler than most of the previous comments: no keyboard layout choice is offered before the root password & first user screens, which assume QWERTY (which may not necessarily be obvious to the user). The keyboard layout is not offered until the final summary screen. This *should* be fixed for release.
CC: (none) => lewyssmith
(In reply to Lewis Smith from comment #48) > Testing at last the M5 RC Classic x64 DVD on real hardware with French > AZERTY keyboard. > > I chose Cymraeg from the initial language selection screen, but do not know > whether this is important i.e. whether the fault would have happened with > say English. Yes, it is important. It would certainly not have happened with British English, because for that language, the gb keyboard has a weight <90 in keyboard.pm: 'en_GB' => 'gb:89 us:60 us_intl:50 dvorak_gb:10' For Cymraeg, gb has 90, which causes the problem. 'cy' => 'gb:90', > Simpler than most of the previous comments: no keyboard layout choice is > offered before the root password & first user screens, which assume QWERTY > (which may not necessarily be obvious to the user). The keyboard layout is > not offered until the final summary screen. This *should* be fixed for > release. No, sorry, it is too late in the release cycle now, it has been like this since Mandrake times and there is an easy workaround: follow the advice in the help http://doc.mageia.org/installer/4/en/content/selectLanguage.html "If your keyboard language is not the same as your preferred language, then it is advisable to install the language of your keyboard as well."
@ Thierry, @ anyone interested in i18n After Mageia 5 release I'd like to * Change the keyboard weights to 95 in drakx-kbd-mouse-x11/tree/lib/keyboard.pm for keyboards which are the _only_ keyboard that can be used for the mentioned language (e.g. Greek, Ukrainian, Japonese, which can't be written with a different keyboard) * Then change ">= 90" in perl-install/install/steps_interactive.pm to ">= 95" So for e.g. Breton and Cymraeg, the first keyboard choice screen would then appear with only one keyboard to choose from, but with the possibility to pick a different keyboard after pressing the "More" button. WDYT?
CC: (none) => i18n-bugs
CC: lewyssmith => (none)
For the other languages, there is now bug 15732 Closing this one, it was originally only about Turkish installs, and that got fixed
Status: NEW => RESOLVEDResolution: (none) => FIXEDSummary: Classic installer does not offer keyboard layout for some languages until summary screen => Classic installer does not offer keyboard layout for Turkish until summary screenWhiteboard: 5beta1 start6 => (none)