Bug 7294

maybe the summary does it automatically because it was chose before ?

Source RPM: (none) => drakx-installer-stage2

There has been no change.
This screen is displayed b/c you tested on a different machine.

CC: (none) => thierry.vignaud

I do not understand comment #2. I am joining a screenshot of the new (and - as far as I can see - superfluous screen)

To be clear: in past releases (Mga 1 and Mga 2)
 (a) such a screen never has been displayed (and there was no need for it)
 (b) the configuration detected by the installer and configured by default has
     always been correct on my machine (a Dell Optiplex 990), no need for any
     explicit user action for selecting the graphics configuration.

Created attachment 2749 [details]
snapshot of the screen referred to in bugzilla 7294

This screen has been part of the install forever (it is part of XFdrake). Years ago, it appeared unconditionally during the pre-Summary install, and in recent years sometimes it appears and sometimes it doesn't.

That said, I have never understood what determines whether it appears or not, or what the criteria are for the Summary Graphical to display as "Automatic" rather than "not configured" or with no designation at all.

And I don't understand comment#2 either.  Thierry, could you please explain further ?  Different from what ?

CC: (none) => ftg

I'm guessing it tries to read the EDID of your monitor and shows the screen to manually select screen size if it can't read it for whatever reason. Just guessing though.

It does show on some and not on others as Frank says.

Yes, my guess is similar.

But the thing is more complex: 

- if (in the screen at the end of the "users phase") I select Plug'n Play, rather than the default offered (1024 x 768 @60 Hz), my screen later gets automatically and correctly configured to the resolution of 1600 x 1200. Therefore, at a later time the installer manages to correctly read the EDID

- if I leave the default as it is, I get a system with a screen configured for 1024 x 768. Initially I did not even realise that my resolution is poor.

So, the initial question is: why and what of this screen? but the consequences must also be kept in view: (a) default settings risk to produce an incorrect configuration of the screen and (b) whereas in Mageia 2 the graphics setup was nice plug and play, in Mageia 3 it is not

I lost an additional issue I to be fixed if this screen needs to be kept: in this situation the Help button has an important role. Although it works, the information displayed is a totally unhelpful placeholder text. The help button should inform on what the installer will do if the user selects an item

One of the problems with cauldron (and cooker before it) is that major changes to infrastructure get muttered about in IRC and never get properly documented or announced/explained (emphasis on the latter) in the dev ML.

It's understandable how people who thought they knew how things were being done wake up one morning to find that system behavior is now incopnsistent with their understanding of the infrastructure because a significant part of the infrastructure has now changed without their knowledge.

That said, I don't know at this point in time how much of graphical configuration is based on intelligent dynamic query of a monitor's capabilities.

At one time in the past, Mandriva maintained databases of monitor characteristics which would be queried based on the model information the monitor supplied or which could be inferred from some sort of hardware signature.  The installer (or XFdrake) would make a best-guess,and that would be the default or initial setting you were shown in the monitor screen.  If it couldn't identify you, you were on your own.

This has definitely changed, especially with laptop screens, which seem much more PNP-friendly than they used to be.  I first noticed the monitor dialog go away for newer laptops.

Whatever we have now is probably a hybrid of dynamic query/PNP and a database model.  But where one leaves off and the other picks up is anyone's guess (except for the people who actually maintain it).

Are you saying that this area needs some general tidying up? Ok, but that will probably not happen before Mageia 3 + x

This bugzilla report is on avoiding regression: Mageia 1 and 2 had - for many / most laptops and desktops with not too unrecent screens - smooth support for plug and play of the graphics setup. The basic information is available to the installer; therefore that should be possible in Mageia 3 as well. Basically, the installer knows how to do it - unless it manages to confuse the user to hitting the wrong buttons - the simple remedy therefore is: dont offer the screen with the confusing buttons unless that is really necessary.

I realise that with the recent changes of the infrastructure this may not be quite easy - but on the bottom line, these changes are meant to help giving the user a better box. 

That is important for naive users and for attracting new users.

The help screens are having to be created from scratch by Mageia doc team, who have done a wonderful job so far. Some are missing or not finished/translated yet but they are tracked in bug 5086.

(In reply to comment #10)
> Are you saying that this area needs some general tidying up? Ok, but that will
> probably not happen before Mageia 3 + x

No.  My point is that because we don't know what the criterion for showing that screen is, we don't know for sure whether it is correct or incorrect that it is displayed in your case, whether or not you didn't see it previously.  Possibly it is now intended behavior.  Or possibly some database is now out of sync as regards your monitor, and was not previously.

Fundamentally, diagnostic and configuration tools need to be a lot more transparent about what they're doing and why certain actions are taken, whether or not this gets relegated to an "Advanced" display.  Unfortunately, that flies in the face of a years-old movement to dumb-down the tools and reduce the choices and displayable information available to the user in the interests of not confusing newbies and Windows expatriates.  *That's* what will probably not happen for MGA3 (if ever, sigh).

> Or possibly some database is now out of sync

probably not - since (if the end-user-phase-screen does not interfere) the configuration gets correctly set. For the rest, helas, I agree with your analysis

Well - what now? I dont care a dime for MY screen, I know how to configure it. I care for how Mageia is perceived by users (or reviewers).

The evident solution would be to wait for final and see if my specific desktop/screen combination is isolated and hope that it is. But what if there is an epedimy? - once that declares itself, the isos will be out. I have the suspicion that just closing this bug and doing nothing is cheating and looking for the easy way out. It worked in the past, why shouldnt it work on an "improved" platform. Will Mageia be assessed on its internal technical perfection, or on the end-user value it delivers?

I submitted the bug, and this discussion made me realise that it is more serious than I had originally seen - it is up to "Bugzilla" to decide whether the bug should be closed without further action.

I had a look at bug 5086 - does not look very promising to create a help file in for this screen in the time-frame up to final.

Maybe not for alpha 1 but there is a long way to go until we reach mga3 final, it isn't planned until March next year :)

"What now" is that whoever has the authoritative information on how this works chimes in with either a judgment as to whether the behavior is valid or (preferably) detailed diagnostic directions that allow us to make the determination ourselves.  And adding what is discovered to the Help probably wouldn't hurt.

My guess is (sorry not based on fact, but gut feeling, although I should not do that :(  )  that this has not changed.

The questions asked above are - if true - still valid.

@tv: could you answer some of the questions raised? Thanks!

@anyone: if not seen anymore, please close as Resolved -> Old.

Whiteboard: 3alpha1 => 5beta1

This is the configureX step in install, that comes *before* the summary step.
 
Some probing is done there. You cannot count on it that if something goes wrong here, a user will understand he'll have to go find this screen in the summary step.

The help was already better since Mga3 release, this is what that help button should show:

http://doc.mageia.org/installer/4/en/content/configureX_monitor.html


(Btw, I doubt many people still have CRT screens, so the worst thing that could happen now, is a black screen or some "out of range" message on it instead of what you need to see, but that won't blow up your monitor)

I don't exactly remember what I do when I get this screen, I suppose something - most probably "Plug'n Play" - is highlighted and I just "OK" that. Or nothing is highlighted, but I choose "Plug'n Play" anyway.... it is ages ago since I selected a monitor from the vendor list.

CC: (none) => marja11

At the time, the confusing screens were quite upsetting, that is why i submitted this bug. In the meantime, plug and play is much better integrated at system generation: I now normally use plug-and-play "automatically" - and do not see the problem any more, a reason to close the bug (I had a hard time to think back to the pre-occupaptions relative to a system called "Mageia3" )

Before really closing the bug, we should give us a couple of days acting the "naive" end-user installing Magia5, checking whether there still is an issue.

Setting NEEDINFO to check whether still an issue (please remove if confirmed). Thanks!

Keywords: (none) => NEEDINFO

(In reply to Juergen Harms from comment #18)
> At the time, the confusing screens were quite upsetting, that is why i
> submitted this bug. In the meantime, plug and play is much better integrated
> at system generation: I now normally use plug-and-play "automatically" - and
> do not see the problem any more, a reason to close the bug (I had a hard
> time to think back to the pre-occupaptions relative to a system called
> "Mageia3" )
> 
> Before really closing the bug, we should give us a couple of days acting the
> "naive" end-user installing Magia5, checking whether there still is an issue.


Nearly 10 months later, no one commented there is still an issue.
Closing as FIXED

Status: NEW => RESOLVED
Resolution: (none) => FIXED