Bug 29986

Created attachment 13113 [details]
the output of the Skype installation terminal via the terminal.

CC: (none) => 79625490833

You mixed several topics.

In Mageia Welcome screen there is already mentioned that there are two package managers: RPMdrake and Dnfdragora.

In Mageia Welcome screen only packages are recommended that are available via the Mageia repositorys. Skype is an external program and has no own repository. So it is not possible to add Skype as recommended program to the welcome screen.

The only thing which should be possible is to change the Magei Wiki. The problem with the Skype package from Microsoft is, that it is badly packaged by Microsoft. With the urpmi command the libatomic1 dependency can not be resolved, but it is possible with dnf. So the original source of the problem is Microsoft. We can only work around. Thats another reason why we can't add Skype to the Welcom screen when you can not install it with urpmi/RPMdrake.

And also with dnf the problem that there is no auto update mechanism for skype is still not solved. The way with the urpmi script in the wiki is a clever way to work around the crappy Microsoft package.

First, i dont really get the subject "Add the update command to both the wiki and the welcome window"  Mageiawelcome have links to configure repos, perform updates, install software... ?


Regardign skype:

Another way to solve install and updating Skype is to install using flatpak.
Flatpak also provides some sandboxing.
(That said I have not installed or used Skype in any way, I just checked "flatpak install skype" say it is available)

Yes, maybe dnf and flatpak methods should be added to skype wiki page.

I see no reason Skype of all available alternatives should be the one added to mageiawelcome.

In mageiawelcome the tab on installing software have a link to our nice wiki page listing some prominent applications.  There is a link to our Skype wiki page.


I would say we have all you suggest, except anyone could improve the Wiki page.

CC: (none) => fri

I have done an overhaul to the wiki page and make a proposal for the new wiki at my personal scrapbook:
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/User:Sturmvogel/scrapbook

- Note was added that urpmi won't work because of unsolved dependencies. Note that experienced users can use rpm -ivh --nodeps
- check_skype script was cleaned up: support for Mageia 6 and 6 removed
- check_skype script was adapted to use dnf instead of urpmi
- (imho) not necessary change history from the site is removed. 99% of our wiki pages don't have such (wiki page cluttering) chapter. The change history is available via the wiki itself.
- i didn't change anything for the author part of the check_skype script. So i made sure that Paul Blackburn is honoured as the original creator of this script!


Anny comments?

CC: (none) => paul.blackburn

I also added the note that you have to install and configure sudo if you want to follow the instructions.

Also added the note that you have to adapt the script ("Download" directory) if you are using an other language/locale as english.

Reading your comments here it sounds all very good :)
I agree about history.

I wonder if the Download folder naming obstacle could be avoided by using a variable name for that folder - is there one?  Or use temp?  Or simply in users root - is to be deleted anyway after install.

As for sudo, dnf need to be configured.  You could simply say so and add a link to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Using_DNF

For the script the directory needs to be existent and writable by a normal user (no root). Also the folder is not deleted after the check. I'm not aware of a variable for "Downloads".


BUT:
I found another quirk that makes the complete script useless:
The dnf command does indeed add a skype repo "/etc/yum.repos.d/skype-stable.repo". And it is possible to update Skype with "dnf update" then. Testet it by installing an outdated skype package and updated it with the dnf update command. So the script is not needed for checking of updates.

That would mean that we could scrap the complete script part from the wiki page:
- (I would be sorry for Pauls good work)
- We have to mention that only the dnf command works for installation of Skype (adding repo and automatic updating)
- We have to mention that it is not possible to add a skype repository with urpmi because Microsoft doesn't provide compatible metadata for their repo
- ....

( Just to clarify: by "users root", I meant ~/ )

Well it is a good "quirk" that dnf is so good it do not need a script ;)
And we don't need a Download folder either then.

Curious: how do dnf know to add "/etc/yum.repos.d/skype-stable.repo", or do we tell it to?

We can move Paul's script to the end, or into a file.
It is good if someone really want to avoid dnf.

I would prefer to scrap the urpmi part including the script. Because it would be really hard to make the script compatible with the actuaul problem that the installation fails because of unsolved libatomic1 dependency. It would need first to issue the "urpmi skypeforlinux-64.rpm" command to install all dependencies besides libatomic1 (there are some dependencies on systems when skype is installed the first time). After installation of most of the deps the script will fail because of missing libatomic1 dependency. Now it would have to switch to "rpm -ivh -nodeps skypeforlinux-64.rpm" to finish the installation.

Uhm, no thanks!

(In reply to Morgan Leijström from comment #10)
> Curious: how do dnf know to add "/etc/yum.repos.d/skype-stable.repo", or do
> we tell it to?

I believe that a script inside the rpm does this. And this script is not compatible with urpmi/Drakrpm.

Ah nice
(sounds a bit dangerous to me that an rpm can alter repos, but... convenient)

I suggest then to skip the automatic install and sudo requirement (as you use "su - in" manual description)  Users should know they can use sudo if they like.

So if i get this all correct it is rather easy:

§ Download the rpm and install it using dnf - which also configure the repo

§ To update spotify run "dnf upgrade --refresh spotify"  Or it is updated with all other packages if you generally use dnf to update your system.

For both installing and updating, dnf should first be configured with Mageia repos to find dependencies.

doh, i meant skype - not spotify... ;)

Summary: [feature request]: Add the update command to both the wiki and the welcome window. => Improving Skype wiki page
Source RPM: mageiawelcome => (none)

I have an additional draw for the Skype wiki. 
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/User:Sturmvogel/scrapbook_2

The urpmi part is for experienced users (the script will fail if you don't install it in manual mode as described.

And we have the new dnf way described.

As the original wiki from Paul was a mix between su - and sudo (script needs sudo but all other commands used su -) i changed all commands at the new wiki page to sudo. So there is no mix anymore and Pauls script can still be used by semi experinced users (experienced users should know how to use su - or sudo anyway...).

Really improving :)

I find the test for installed cheese occupying much place. And user may already have another cam app installed, depending on desktop choice or preference!

I think we can tell users:

"Please check that your camera is working using any simple webcam application like cheese, kamerka, kamoso, luvcview, webcamoid, wmwebcam, wxcam.  You can find them among our packaged programs."

(
Another idea to make it both shorter and automated:
rpm -qa | grep -q cheese && echo Cheese is installed || sudo urpmi cheese
  - and omit example to minimize text bulk.
But that may lead to unnecessary installation especially for dependencies per what I just wrote
  )

Morgan i agree completely on that part with cheese! This step was introduced by Paul at the now archived "Google Talk" wiki.

I will remove the commands as it makes the wiki page more complicated as it is already and take your recommendation:
"Please check that your camera is working using any simple webcam application like cheese, kamerka, kamoso, luvcview, webcamoid, wmwebcam, wxcam.  You can find them among our packaged programs."

:)

Further comments

§ Add note in top of appendix that this script is not needed when you use dnf, recommended method above (link)

§ Regarding "/bin/sudo dnf update": it will update the whole system, user may not want that. (may prefer urpmi & co)  Also it will not first refresh repo.  See my example in comment 13 (not tested)

Hello, I wrote the original wiki page for installing Skype in Mageia.

I tried to keep things simple with what worked for me.

Over time, it has become apparent that the Skype RPM has had changes that now require other pre-requisites in place.

It is clear to me that simply downloading the RPM and trying to fix things up for it to work is a bit too clunky and crude.

I thought about this a lot and I have a more elegant urpmi solution in mind.

I do not use DNF and an quite happy working with urpmi.
Personally, I think it is rather confusing using two different packages managers on a single system: how are rpm details aver going to be kept in sync between urpmi and dnf?

Anyway, I would like to propose that whoever likes to use DNF might write up a DNF install of Skype wiki page (or perhaps appendix?).

I am going to update the urpmi method and wiki page for the solution I have in mind.

Add note at top of appendix: Done

Changed and tested command for upgrade to "/bin/sudo dnf upgrade --refresh skypeforlinux"


(Sidenote: The more i work with dnf the more i like urpmi :) )

IMHO it makes absolut no sense to have two separate wikis for one program only because you are able to install it whith two commands. It's tru that you cann install ALL Mageia packages with dnf or urpmi and mix it. No probs there.

The external Skype package is an exception because Microsoft screwed up to provide a correct repository.

So please, before you create a new page have a look at this draw:
https://wiki.mageia.org/en/User:Sturmvogel/scrapbook_2

This solution with dnf is elegant.

Some users do use dnf only (after system install)

But most use urpmi

So i think it is good to have both alternatives, especially if urpmi method and description could get substantially simplified.

There are potential screw ups using both urpmi & dnf. The orphans issue is debated, but also consider user need to have same repos configured and updated, i.e 32 bit or not on 64 bit systems, tainted or not, backports or not, testing repos...

Then there is Flatpak.  We could just mention it and point to our Flatpak page.  The good thing in this case is that it is probably the easiest (but i have not tested if it works), and also provide some sandboxing.

It is better not to use any blob on the likeness of flatpak.

There are reasons to avoid flatpak, like total install is relatively big especially if only a few programs use it.  Other may be desktop integration and performance.  But some like me find executing an externally designed rpm:s scripts as root is a tad adventorous.

Можно спокойно свою систему превратить в тыкву.(In reply to Morgan Leijström from comment #24)
> Есть причины избегать flatpak, например, общая установка относительно
> велика, особенно если ее используют всего несколько программ. Другими могут
> быть интеграция с рабочим столом и производительность. Но некоторые, такие
> как я, считают, что выполнение сценариев rpm:s, разработанных извне, как
> root, немного авантюрно.

Not that it's adventurous, but most likely you'll turn the system into a pumpkin faster than you'll get something useful.

Gosh, what a lot of activity!

First, big thanks to sturmvogel for his new Wiki page.
I was pleased to see Paul popping up here.

(In reply to sturmvogel from comment #21)
> IMHO it makes absolut no sense to have two separate wikis for one program
This is all I can comment on. I agree entirely: unless the page would be too big (they can be), PLEASE agree on just ONE which covers both methods, DNF & URPMI.
OTOH if this got too heavy, ideally create 1 page called 'Skype via URPMI' with cross-links to the other 'Skype via DNF'. Marja is the expert on changing a page title, not normally possible.

Your new work can be easily integrated (Ctrl/C, Ctrl/V !) into the revamped more comprehensive wiki page. I am willing to do any cosmetic tidying if wanted.

Paul:
> I have a more elegant urpmi solution in mind
> I am going to update the urpmi method and wiki page
> for the solution I have in mind
Good.
Morgan:
> So i think it is good to have both alternatives, especially if
> urpmi method and description could get substantially simplified.
Agree.

> It's tru that
> you cann install ALL Mageia packages with dnf or urpmi and mix it. No probs
> there.
This, in ignorance, looks dicey to me: mixing rpmdrake & DNF. But if it really does not matter - so much the better, & good to know.

CC: (none) => lewyssmith

People who want to use dnf should switch to using it and only it as soon after
installation as possible.

Mixing can cause problems with both urpmi and dnf due to orphan handling.

CC: (none) => davidwhodgins

(In reply to sturmvogel from comment #15)
> I have an additional draw for the Skype wiki. 
> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/User:Sturmvogel/scrapbook_2
> 
> The urpmi part is for experienced users (the script will fail if you don't
> install it in manual mode as described.
> 
> And we have the new dnf way described.
> 
> As the original wiki from Paul was a mix between su - and sudo (script needs
> sudo but all other commands used su -) i changed all commands at the new
> wiki page to sudo. So there is no mix anymore and Pauls script can still be
> used by semi experinced users (experienced users should know how to use su -
> or sudo anyway...).

you can shorten the command to dnf --ref up or dup

I have already tried so, updates very well.

As this page should also be intended for beginners, it is always good to use complete commands so that they know what this command is doing.

@sturmvogel, @Paul

Just to remind you that when you have broadly adjusted the wiki page(s) to your satisfaction, whether as 1 or 2, please close this bug - why not 'resolved'?
No need to await any final 'tuning' of the result. We cannot have open bugs for every wiki page change.
If I can help, ask me directly (not on this bug).

IMHO, it is a bit odd to run a bug report for requesting changes to a wiki page.

Normally there would be discussion between users and the wiki page author or perhaps on a Mageia Forum.

Considering how much wiki we have that could be a huge number of opened bugs for each and every update to be considered.

Also, what is the criteria for "fixing" a wiki update bug? When does it close?
In my experience, wiki pages are continually being updated and refined.


I think bugzilla is not quite appropriate for requesting wiki updates.
So, what do you think?

If you read this bug closely you will see that the topic was changed later by Morgan, because the original description/topic was unclear/misleading. We figured out that there is no real Mageia package problem. The "problem" can be solved by updating the wiki to a modern installation method (DNF) to work around a badly packaged Microsoft rpm.

And most of the guys that are active here on Bugzilla don't show up in the English forum. Mailingliste are IMHO also a bad solution to discuss a problem in depth. That's why I was happy to see so much comments her in Bugzilla. But close this report if needed.

And my last two cents: There seems to be no active wiki page maintainers anymore, or nobody has time to do something. You can look into doc ML. I'm still awaiting some useful feedback for this topics there....

I think this works well.

Paul have valid points but as sturmvogel explained it transformed.

But yes not a bug.

For wiki issues I guess best asignee team is documentation team?

Assignee: bugsquad => doc-bugs

A thread on the doc-discuss ml would be the most appropriate way to handle
wiki page changes.