Bug 1047

Not everybody has a fast internet access nor dvd reader. People using old computers ( think various NGO doing computer recycling ) or people living in country where there is download quota ( 3g connexion in France, or people in country like Iran, or even in USAs 2 years ago ( see this report http://www.newamerica.net/pressroom/2009/a_comparison_of_bandwidth_caps_in_the_us_and_japan)). 

So there is a use for 700 mo image.

CC: (none) => misc

To Michael : Sorry to bring some contradiction 


My point of view is different from yours about the same problem of slow access or download quotas and what they imply :

Mine is fast and I don't have limited download quotas .
I can download isos and burn CD or DVD and then ship them to my friends ...
The more I can fill a DVD, the less they have to download !!! and that's a workaround to their access problem... 
(for the same reason, every 2 months, I used to burn and ship CD or DVD for updating Mandriva after having downloaded the necessary rpms on my computer)


A LiveDVD won't be so bad for people having DVD readers (recycled computers having only CD readers are very old and rare, they certainly couldn't afford KDE and for them a KDE LiveCD is certainly useless !)

With a DVD you can test and install a complete working distro on several computers...
With a CD you can install a partial distribution on several computers but each of them needs an internet access to download what is missing ...

CC: (none) => philippedidier

We have been asked often to keep these CDs. Moreover, half of the isos downloaded in Mandriva were live CDs because it's just easy. Another target audience

(In reply to comment #2)
And the ones whom you don't know? and they don't know anyone running Mageia to post them a CD/DVD in the mail? and the ones who live in impoverished countries who don't have broadband at all?

(In reply to comment #4)

Ahmad, I know that I can't do anything directly for people I don't know, nor for people who don't have broadband at all...
Nevertheless, I may propose that Mageia offers isos that would be useful for anyone (or any NGO) who wants to post or carry CD or DVD in impoverished countries.

I even suggested something more in november :

http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=200&goto=1877&S=49eef3db0289645cd744d2d06c3d8403#msg_1877
  
Briefly (it is not about this bug actually) : some months after a distribution has been published, lot of updates have been uploaded into the update repos (some of them being heavy : kernel, libreoffice, etc... )
I proposed 2 kinds of solutions for slow or limited broadband or no broadband at all:
from time to time (2 or 3 times a year) 
- Mageia may provide updated DVD isos (containing the same rpms as in the first iso, but having the updated ones and their dependencies)
- or CD iso of updated rpms (the CD being used as an update source) 

In both cases it wouldn't need lot of work... but some space on mirrors

Anyone who can download and burn those isos may provide them to whom he knows (NGO, friends, schools in pour countries ) 
Mageia is not a NGO ... but sharing Knowledge is one of its values... and providing an easy way to share it would be useful for some people who need something simple to install and to use ...


for these reasons I would say build more isos !!!

We can do lots of things. Still if we don't have proper QA for these isos, it's just not possible. At the moment QA team is too small. Join us :)

Sorry Anne, I'm not able enough to join the QA team :( 
just able to try to bring suggestions

1)

Not to increase the job of QA Team :

Would it be more complex for you to build a LiveDVD instead of an install-DVD ? 

Would this LiveDVD be less usable than an install-DVD to proceed to a simple install, (having a boot-menu giving choice to use it as a LiveDVD or to proceed to an install without testing first ?)

That would mean only one DVD for 32bits and one for 64bits for all purpose !

(LiveCDs having or no an interest ? I can't say : there is actually no alternative ; comparing the number of downloads of LiveCD and LiveDVD if both of them existed would bring some answer ...)


2)

I have already done my own "bricolage" to provide from time to time DVDs of updated rpms to my friends having very slow and limited internet connections... and I wanted to share my experience 

Providing from time to time isos of updated rpms would certainly not ask too much work to QA team : in the update repos the updated rpms have already been accepted 
These isos would only contain a collection of updated rpms and something asking to rpmdrake to use this DVD as source before trying to use the official update repos whose it would be a kind of clone. 
It's more rational to have this iso for everybody than to have several people collecting updated rpms in a directory on their own computer and burning DVD that have a restricted use !!! (only for some friends ... of the downloader !)

These DVDs might be burned and posted by anyone or any NGO having fast and unlimited connection.


Perhaps bugzilla is not the right place to discuss ? 
better to talk of this on the mailing list, or on the forum ?


Anyway thanks for your huge and nice and transparent work !

(In reply to comment #7)
> 
> Would this LiveDVD be less usable than an install-DVD to proceed to a simple
> install, (having a boot-menu giving choice to use it as a LiveDVD or to proceed
> to an install without testing first ?)

Yes. With an install DVD or CD you can select which software you want to install. With a live CD/DVD, the install is just a copy of everything to disk, you cannot select what you want to install. And some files like documentation or man pages are not included on livecd to save space.

So an install CD/DVD is better for installing.

CC: (none) => boklm

Has anything been decided on this request?

CC: (none) => marja11
Summary: Build less iso => Build less iso's

It was indeed more a discuss than a bug report !


Indeed, since april, final Mageia1 was published ( june 1st )
something was decided :
8 liveCD : 4 localised KDE CD ; 4 Localised Gnome CD
2 monoarch  install DVD (1 for 32 bits, 1 for 64 bits)
1 dual arch install CD
2 boot iso for net install


The reason why not to make an install from a LiveDVD was clearly
explained in Comment 8 ... (and having a glance to Mandriva's forums
shows which problems occurs with an install from a LiveDVD :-(


Nevertheless : since june, more than 1 Go of updates have been
provided... If you install now, you will need to have a good internet
access !!

It's time to think again to provide a solution for limited speed or
limited download quotas...

- the more difficult being to provide the iso for an updated installDVD
needing QA
- the easiest being to provide an iso for a DVD of updated rpms (to add
as a new source for updates, prior than mirrors) eventually with a
script allowing a simple way to add it... (but bug 2317 may not allow
easily to use it !!!!)

In both cases burned DVD may easily be shipped to people willing to
install but not able to update through internet (with the risk of a half
aborted update if the access is broken when downloading)

But this is not the better place to discuss about it !!!
Perhaps need a new thread on user or dev mailing list ...

Actually, the title of the bug report and its description had its answer
: WontFix for Mageia1...

> Now, cd-rom is dead ! internet is fast !

So why need a installation media that contains the packages in the first place? Just download everything when installing. 
The full media is only useful as long as there weren't many updates. After a while you have a DVD with lots of outdated packages, where you need to pull the current version from the mirrors anyway.

And while many people have DVD-burner, many people will install using USB instead of actual CD-ROM. While it is easy to dump 700MB to a 1GB stick, the number of people who have a 5GB+ USB stick around is much smaller.

I only used the DVD iso because there is no live version for 64bit....

Medium should contain everything to get the graphical desktop running + whatever popular packages still fit in the CD-ROM size.
DVD-installation media is a bonus/plus - but probably can be also achieved by a simple mirror of the repository that people can burn onto DVD (so those who want to have full offline copy would get the CD-ROM (or just a bootstrap/network iso to put on USB-stick) + an additional DVD - providing an updated snapshot of the package repositories would not require any QA, so you could provide a monthly updated DVD easily).

my 2ct.

CC: (none) => lohmaier+mageia

Hi,

This bug was filed against cauldron, but we do not have cauldron at the moment.

Please report whether this bug is still valid for Mageia 2.

Thanks :)

Cheers,
marja

Keywords: (none) => NEEDINFO

Hi,

Great this Mageia 3 LiveDVD, but i have suggestion :

Sorry for my bad english but when i try to know mageia at my friends it is not easy !

Many Linux distributions
Many Linux version (Mageia 1,2,3..., ubuntu ....)
Many Desktop version (gnome, kde, mageia 2 gnome2, mageia 3 gnome 3....)

oufff

Not easy to explain !! Saturday i want show Mageia 3 at a friend, i must donwload 2 iso for show Gnome and KDE live-DVD :(


Why don't build (2 iso and not 4 as the moment) :

Mageia 3 LiveDVD Gnome+Kde i586
Mageia 3 LiveDVD Gnome+Kde x86_64 ?

One live-DVD do +/- 1Go, then it is <2Go if you merge !

Example for boot menu Live-DVD :

-> Install Mageia 3
-> Boot live Mageia 3 KDE
-> Boot Live Mageia 3 Gnome

The "all in one", New user can try KDE or Gnome and after starting the installation by choosing desktop that it wants to install (as free DVD installer).


I think it is better use for news users who don't know desktop name and they must download 2 iso (kde and gnome) for to know

I add url where we are talking in french board

Thank you

URL: (none) => http://www.mageialinux-online.org/forum/topic-13909+pourquoi-pas-un-live-dvd-multi-bureau.php

AFAIK this bug should be closed. We reduced the amount of isos and people were happy with what we got.

CC: (none) => sander.lepik

Hi Arnaud,

Thanks for your report and your suggestions. As Sander wrote, the number of ISO's has been reduced already. The reason for seperate DVD's for GNOME and KDE is that we'd like to keep the size of those ISO's under 4 GB if I'm not mistaken.

For now, this has been resolved to the satisfaction of the release manager and the QA team. I understand that the agreed set of ISO's might not match your personal expectations.

Status: NEW => RESOLVED
Resolution: (none) => FIXED

I believe that also, increasing the size of the livedvd's would have performance implications.

Thank for reply.